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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2989
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Posted - 2016.01.26 17:36:45 -
[1] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped...
For every freighter you've seen bumped, you have seen hundreds more pass through unscathed. Its only a relatively small amount of freighters that get ganked and only in a few systems. So if anything, ganking should be made easier. This would actually reward good piloting and making friends.
The amount of organisation and resources it takes to gank a freighter is no small feat where as all the freighter pilot has to do to avoid the gank is:
Not be AFK.
Bring one friend.
Take another route.
Go to another market.
Take several trips.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2990
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Posted - 2016.01.26 19:21:04 -
[2] - Quote
I'd actually be fine with cans jettisoned by criminals being blue just like their wrecks.
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Those are all great points! I agree! However the bumping mechanic, if you happen to fall into the trap should not keep you in limbo for a long time. Either they have a gank fleet ready in 5-10 min.. and go for it... or let ya go.
Why not? Ships being held indefinitely for ransom or so others can get on the kill mail is not exclusive to freighters. Did it ever occur to you that the gankers are not the only thing keeping you in 'limbo'. Your attachment to your ship and its cargo is.
Do what the rest of us do. Call for back up, eject or self destruct.
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
And if they do kill it... make the punishments for criminals get harder and harder and more expensive to recover from with tags etc...
So your perception of balance is to nerf ganking until no one does it anymore?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2993
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Posted - 2016.01.27 00:17:58 -
[3] - Quote
lol what?
Because CCP didnt intend the use of bumping ships for ganking when they coded collision mechanics it means the mechanic is flawed? I suppose that applies to all emergent gameplay then?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2994
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Posted - 2016.01.27 01:11:42 -
[4] - Quote
If bumping is flawed purely on the basis that it is emergent gameplay, then so is ganking. When CCP coded CONCORD response times they did not intend players to try and kill eachother before CONCORD arrived.
As is scamming, corp theft, rolling and collapsing WH's, using stabs in FW plexes, the MWD cloak trick, armour tanking a black bird, pipe bombing etc etc.
By your thinking this is all flawed gameplay?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2995
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Posted - 2016.01.27 02:06:54 -
[5] - Quote
Then you havent defended your argument or backed up your points at all. The sole argument you have given to want to change bumping is that it was not intended gameplay (and that you just dont like it).
If bumping is cheap and gamey, then how isnt the mwd cloak trick? How isnt having a friend web you into warp to avoid a gank cheap and gamey?
Both those mechanics are just as unintended as bumping for tackle, except they take much less effort, much less investment and have a much higher rate of success.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2999
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Posted - 2016.01.27 16:16:58 -
[6] - Quote
Like wise if my bowhead lands in a bubble camp with 30 hostiles im also ****** and I can also be held there indefinitely or until I self destruct. The fact that there was plenty I could have done before I landed in the bubble camp is the issue here.
You say people are bitter about discussing it, but its been discussed for years and no viable alternative has been put forward. In fact, considering how easy the mechanic is to avoid, the need for an alternative is highly questionable. The motives of everyone who proposes a change is also highly questionable. They make up facts. They misrepresent. And the best reason they give for wanting a change is: I dont like it. Its obvious to everyone that they are asking CCP to let them be greedier and dumber.
Plenty of argument has been put forward in this thread, and every other, that freighters really do NOT need the help. The vast VAST majority of hauling is wholly uneventful. Even afk freighters make it through the most dangerous systems more often than not. The smart thing to do is make hauling more dangerous before, or at least at the same time as, any 'fixes' for tackling with bumping is done.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3000
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Posted - 2016.01.27 18:53:34 -
[7] - Quote
@lyna
If you have no friends to help then manage your business accordingly. Capital ships are deliberately vulnerable such that they are best flown with escorts. Its the same everywhere. You can accept this risk when flying solo and factor it into your profits, or you can down size to a DST and use the mwd-cloak trick for near gank invulnerability.
@Eli
My post doesn't necessarily apply to you because you haven't posted any solutions to any mechanics you dont like. I will say that you are inconsistent with your arguments however. Where one mechanic is flawed because it was unintended but other emergent gameplay is just fine. And where you've called gankers lazy when the people they punish are literally AFK.
Hi-sec, null sec. What does it matter? You can be held against your will in this game. Learn to self destruct.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3004
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Posted - 2016.01.27 23:26:36 -
[8] - Quote
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: rabble rabble Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking. Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.
And whos fault is that? When it's the haulers that determine how easy and profitable they themselves are to gank.
Call it easy mode as much as you want, but it's still more effort than haulers put into their playstyle and its defense.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3008
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Posted - 2016.01.28 02:13:08 -
[9] - Quote
The problems are:
- Ganking is rare enough as it is. If anything we should be turning back some nerfs to breathe some life back into the hauling profession. This would reward good pilots over bad.
- The only reason you want bumping to go is to allow yourself to be lazy or because you have a hatred for the ganking playstyle. No good argument has been made. Ever.
- There has been no proposal made to end bumping for ganks that does not ruin the game in other areas.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3015
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Posted - 2016.01.28 20:53:42 -
[10] - Quote
Speak for yourself Rha.
Its people speaking against the mechanic of bumping that are most guilty of lying to get their own way, hyperbole and using terms like 'bully'. You more than most are only concerned with spiting gankers than presenting a case against bumping.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3015
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Posted - 2016.01.28 21:24:05 -
[11] - Quote
You've misread my post.
But when I get home tomorrow I can link several posts where people advocating for the removal of bumping have used such terms and I can link posts from this thread that suggest you are more pre occupied with spiting gankers than balance.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3017
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Posted - 2016.01.29 00:10:17 -
[12] - Quote
You're missing the greater picture in several places.
You are willfully ignoring that it is very VERY easy to avoid a gank. You are ignoring that ganking is very VERY low frequency relative to the amount of freighter journeys. You are ignoring that a freighter being bumped is far from the only mechanic that is impossible to escape once its too late. You are ignoring that the gankers put far more effort into their playstyle than haulers do their defense.
THAT is the bigger picture.
It is you that is trying to tunnel this discussion into bumping alone. Like someone who doesnt like afk cloaking trying to make the discussion about cloaks alone.
You've already asked us what the problems were and ive given them to you, but it is instead you that is the brick wall.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3017
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Posted - 2016.01.29 01:00:09 -
[13] - Quote
Orchestrating, managing and supplying groups of that size is no small feat. You were complaining about how its ganking on 'easy mode', but what does that make piloting a freighter? 'Even easier mode'? And then you still want to turn hauling into 'even easier than easier mode'?
Yes this is about more than a mechanic being good or bad, because balance trumps that. As does the fact that there has been no solution presented that doesn't break the game else where.
Not every mechanic in the game is perfect. Look at ecm or afk cloaking. But you cant rip the mechanic out without any thought for balance or gameplay implications.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3018
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Posted - 2016.01.29 02:15:11 -
[14] - Quote
Looting a freighter with catalysts would take a while. They have to loot the wreck, jettision and then loot from the wreck into their can. They can only jettison one can per minute, bearing in mind you've had 20 seconds to shoot these guys as well, and even if each catalyst fills its can, its gonna take a while for whatever comes for those cans to scoop them all. During which it is vulnerableto being bumped and shot (or shoot or scoop the cans. Maybe they should be blue).
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3022
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Posted - 2016.01.29 02:18:21 -
[15] - Quote
You were just telling people to look at the bigger picture...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3035
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Posted - 2016.01.31 04:10:37 -
[16] - Quote
1Lt Aldo Raine wrote:As my friends have stated we are in no way saying that ganking should be nerfed. It's a tactic, one employed by my team to hunt bumpers and scouts on a daily basis. 
Is like saying we are nerfing lasers, but in no way nerfing amarr ships...
Taking away a tactic is still nerfing a playstyle.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3038
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Posted - 2016.01.31 20:21:56 -
[17] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:my suggested solution is simple, rewards ak piloting , creates a few variables for the gankers, bumpers + target and is no way a nerf to ganking . what's the problem? 
The problems are:
And do you know what rewards not only haulers at their keyboard, but smarter and more organised haulers as well?
Keeping bumping.
And whats with all these alts saying 'in no way...'
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3038
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Posted - 2016.02.01 00:09:36 -
[18] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:bigbud skunkafella wrote:my suggested solution is simple, rewards ak piloting , creates a few variables for the gankers, bumpers + target and is no way a nerf to ganking . what's the problem? ... And whats with all these alts saying 'in no way...' sheesh, dontcha know there's only one bigbud skunkafella ? 
Its so hard to tell your posts apart from the other people who have no experience on the matter but want to nerf ganking anyways because they just dont like it.
@ khergit
Problem with your post.
- Why do you feel entitled to haul with a capital ship without friends or alts? Other caps are vulnerable to bumping and because of that are best used in teams. Why does the freighter need to be special?
Solo players are not meant to be as powerful as group's of players. You could instead fly a DST (something that is harder to bump and can even use the mwd trick).
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3038
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Posted - 2016.02.01 02:04:12 -
[19] - Quote
So what is your point? (to use a similarly exaggerated and non-sensical argument)
That all consequences should be handed out by CCP? If I shoot a POS in low sec I should be banned from the game?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3038
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Posted - 2016.02.01 02:59:25 -
[20] - Quote
Brad Neece wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:So what is your point? (to use a similarly exaggerated and non-sensical argument)
That all consequences should be handed out by CCP? If I shoot a POS in low sec I should be banned from the game? Concord response should not happen against criminals.....if in-game consequences should be imposed by other players. I was taking that to the extreme. But on a serious note, maybe if CCP fixes the lame bounty system. Ganking bumpers might be a worthwhile EVE activity. But only if there is a way to confirm the bumping lead to a gank.
Because there is no perma-death, any bounty system that pays well will be exploited. But at least you get paid for sitting in a Naga and whoring on ganker losses.
The game was indeed designed with the notion that players take responsibility for their own protection and vengeance. Read the oft referenced 'falcon punch' post by CCP falcon. Players exacting revenge is exactly what kill rights are for. CONCORD were not intended to replace player revenge. They are a deterrent.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3045
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Posted - 2016.02.01 16:08:38 -
[21] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
if a freighter gets bumped in uedama f.i. , the pilot is, under current bumping mechanics, pretty much at the mercy of the bumper for as long as it takes , sometimes for hours . my suggestion gives the freighter pilot something to do to help himself other than self destruct, wait for death in the queue or pay a ransom then wait for death in the queue.
This is a game where you can be held against your will indefinitely or until you self destruct. Ships that are pointed or bubbled are also at the mercy of their attackers. If you jump into a WH you can be trapped indefinitely or until you self destruct. Situations where there is no way out after you have repeatedly screwed yourself over is not unique to freighters.
Giving freighters an emergency MJD doesnt just make them more difficult to gank, it also makes them more difficult to point or bubble. As if you even need to be told that.
Still waiting for one good reason why something that is already 99.9% successful, needs to be even more successful.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3048
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Posted - 2016.02.01 16:51:47 -
[22] - Quote
bigbud skunkafella wrote: the arguments put forward stating that a mjd would be ineffective against bumping in hisec somehow don't apply in lo/null? im confused somewhat... 
Because tackling in low/null is only done with battleships  Confused is right.
Still not addressing how something that is 99.9% safe needs to be even more safe.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3050
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Posted - 2016.02.01 21:33:15 -
[23] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Your examples.. are great! like you said.. Bubbled in Null, or trapped in a WH. Both of those environments are very hostile. If you want to go extort people, head there. There, you should have a fleet of people to escort a Freighter. Makes 100%. In HS, neither of those things apply. So the mechanics of being held hostage by someone in highsec should not happen.
Where does it say it shouldn't apply in hisec? Where does it say you shouldn't have a fleet escort you in hi sec?
Hi sec is safer, but not completely safe. And thats why its more difficult, but not impossible to do it in hi-sec. This is eve 101 ffs.
And I can still hold someone hostage with a point with a wardec or in a duel.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3052
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Posted - 2016.02.01 23:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
The point of my post was not that I expect him to dig up what we all know doesn't exist but actually realise that, outside of noob systems, there is no behaviour that is ok in one area of space but not others. There are a specific list of modules, ships etc but not player behaviour/tactics.
@kickass
Why is holding someone indefinitely with a point in a wardec ok, but bumping them is bad?
They both do the same thing in the same area of space, with similar options for the one being held.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3055
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Posted - 2016.02.02 01:29:42 -
[25] - Quote
Its also worth mentioning sivala, by a significant margin, is the most kill active gate in uedama.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3061
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Posted - 2016.02.02 14:18:15 -
[26] - Quote
Waiting until the freighter is bumped before you start webbing is the problem there. If you web the freighter after it decloaks, you need about three seconds to web it into warp, even less time with a daredevil. Bumpers arent going to get you within that time frame. Webbing is a sure way to get past bumpers.
Again with the terrible 'limbo' argument. Theres nothing you can do about a lot in this game, especially if you negligently compromised your own position. Being held in limbo can even be done numerous ways. Whats telling is you guys are fine with people being held in limbo in every way except when gankers do it.
The link you posted is gevlon goblin giving advice on how to tank and then says that most people that lose their freighters deserve it. He also says ganking is 'widespread' because people are stupid with their freighters. Well at least hes right about the stupid part.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3062
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Posted - 2016.02.02 15:04:18 -
[27] - Quote
My post was directed at bigbud. Id didnt see yours serendipity before i hit post.
I wouldnt mind bumping becoming an aggressive act, but there is no way for the server to know when its accidental or malicious. And id like to see some nerfs to hauling before i see more nerfs to ganking.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3062
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Posted - 2016.02.02 15:36:23 -
[28] - Quote
Precisely. Once the players find out how the server recognises malicious vs accident, they will exploit it.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3065
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Posted - 2016.02.03 01:14:08 -
[29] - Quote
-If there is a blackbird AND a mach sitting ominously at a gate, your scout should be able to identify it and notify the freighter. The more tools you use, the better your chance of survival.
-Pulling at all straws with the DC comment as if it only happens to the AG crowd. Be sensible.
-Two nados will pop a wreck or something like 5-8 thrashers. Thats not much compared to what gankers have to put together to carry out the gank itself.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3066
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Posted - 2016.02.03 07:32:12 -
[30] - Quote
So nados sitting in wait are obvious, but the bumping mach isnt?
I also wouldn't mind the transfer to fleet hangar be a suspect offense or not possible for criminals to do. But id like to see a nerf to hauling first.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3069
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Posted - 2016.02.04 15:47:19 -
[31] - Quote
Bella, perhaps you should have read up on the game before investing in it.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3069
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 16:05:04 -
[32] - Quote
They likely 'look into' AFK cloaking just as much.
And war decs.
And ganking.
And ship performance.
Monitoring things and keeping up with discussion doesnt automatically mean there is a problem. You can investigate a concern amongst part of the player base without agreeing with them.
CCP Rise wrote:
"We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed... Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish."
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3073
|
Posted - 2016.02.04 16:07:10 -
[33] - Quote
Yeah its pretty clear Bell,a that you've missed alot.
The FAQ, EVE's wiki, EVE's playerbase, CCP themselves (repeatedly) will tell you this is the game you cannot play alone and others can interfer with your game. Its one of the fundamental principals of the game. If you had read up before joining, you'd have caught at least some of this...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3073
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Posted - 2016.02.04 16:10:18 -
[34] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bella Jennie wrote:
Also how many cling to the notions that CCP made this game specifically so that people could harass, annoy and grief other players without any risk or consequences..
Your blatant hyperbole aside, that is exactly what CCP made this game for.
This ^^
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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